Liverpool, Manchester United, 20 league titles and the battle to be England’s most successful club

A few months into his retirement, at a time when Manchester United were still the champions of England, Sir Alex Ferguson appeared at the Lowry Theatre for an event to promote his new autobiography.

On stage, he was invited to expand on some of the subjects he had discussed in his new book. The make-up of his audience meant he had to choose his words carefully when it came to settling scores with much-loved former United players like David Beckham, Roy Keane and Ruud van Nistelrooy. He was on safer ground when it came to another of his favourite subjects: Liverpool.

He played the hits: how he had made his mission to “knock them off their f***ing perch” when he arrived in Manchester in the mid-1980s; how United replaced them as English football’s dominant force in the 1990s; how he and his players had seen off their rivals at various points in the 2000s; and how, by the time he retired in 2013, United led them by 20 league titles to 18.

“And what’s great,” he chuckled on that evening in October 2013, “is that our young fans growing up now don’t even remember when Liverpool were successful!”

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In the coming days, perhaps even on Wednesday evening but more likely at the weekend, Liverpool will be confirmed as champions of England.

It will be significant for a number of reasons: the fact that their coach Arne Slot has done it at the first time of asking; the fact that their only other league title in the Premier League was secured during the Covid-19 pandemic and lockdown restrictions, which means that this will be the first time since 1990 they have been crowned in front of their supporters.

But most significant of all, from a historical perspective, is the fact this will be their 20th league title. It will equal the record United set in 2013, having spent two decades clawing back and ultimately overhauling what had appeared an unassailable deficit.

For United in the later years of Ferguson’s tenure, that became an obsession for manager, players and supporters alike. After United ended their 26-year wait for a league title in 1993, they were greeted at Anfield the following season with a banner telling them to “come back when you’ve won 18”.

Sure enough, in late 2009, United’s supporters travelled to Merseyside with a banner that read, “You told us to come back when we won 18… We are back.”

In 2009 Rio Ferdinand spoke of an “added satisfaction” at having drawn level, adding that “overtaking that record is definitely the next aim now”. His team-mate Gary Neville, who has often spoken of how Liverpool ruined his childhood as a United fan, said: “It would be massive for us to get to 19 before them and become the outright most successful team in England.”

They did. The day after United secured a record-breaking 19th title in May 2011, a couple of their supporters got tickets for Liverpool’s home game against Tottenham Hotspur and managed to unfurl a banner in the Anfield Road end that said, “MUFC 19 times” — and get it photographed by a third conspirator in the Main Stand — before making a quick getaway in a car waiting outside.

As Steven Gerrard said in his autobiography: “It hurt me that we remained stuck on 18 league titles while United, who had lagged behind us for decades, devoured one championship after another.”

By the time Ferguson retired in 2013, it was 20-18 in United’s favour and the power shift appeared permanent. Liverpool were miles away, having finished seventh that campaign, and eighth, sixth and seventh in the previous three seasons. Even if United took a little time to adapt once Ferguson finally retired, the empire he had built over the previous two decades looked strong enough to endure.

But United had ignored the warnings from history — both Liverpool’s and their own.

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When Manchester United were crowned champions in 1967, they moved level with Arsenal and Liverpool on seven league titles. Three years after that, Everton joined them although it was Arsenal, in 1971, who were first to claim their eighth.

Over the years that followed, Liverpool emerged as English football’s dominant force, winning 11 titles, four European Cups, two UEFA Cups, three FA Cups and four League Cups between 1973 and 1990. The managerial transition from Bill Shankly to Bob Paisley to Joe Fagan to Kenny Dalglish, and from one successful team to another, was almost seamless; great players came and went, but the Anfield “Boot Room” philosophy endured.

By contrast, United fell into decline. Their European Cup success in 1968, the first by an English club, came to be seen not as a springboard to further glories but as the end of the emotional journey that had seen their legendary manager Matt Busby rebuild the club and the team from the ashes of the Munich air disaster.

Busby stood down as as manager a year later, imagining the club would go from strength to strength under Wilf McGuinness.

But both McGuinness and his successor, Frank O’Farrell, seemed overawed by the size of the job, which, as well as trying to cover the post-Busby void, included the difficulties of handling Bobby Charlton’s decline and George Best’s off-pitch problems. After a near-miss in 1972-73, United were relegated in 1974.

They bounced straight back up under the charismatic Tommy Docherty and fought with Liverpool for the league title in 1975-76 and 1979-80, as well as beating them in the FA Cup final in 1977, but every resurgence — every cup success and every brief doomed title challenge — was followed by a regression.

Docherty, Dave Sexton, Ron Atkinson… all these managers had their moments, but they could not take the final step. Big-money signings, seen as the last pieces in a title-winning jigsaw, were often a poor fit and the whole operation would start again.

By the time Ferguson arrived from Scottish club Aberdeen in 1986, 19 years had passed since United were champions. By the end of the 1980s, a quarter of a century was looming.

But throughout the 1980s, as the trophies kept coming at Liverpool, the club’s chief executive, the late Peter Robinson, used to warn that “if that lot down the East Lancs Road ever get their act together, we’re in trouble”.

That’s exactly what transpired. Even if, when it came to Liverpool being knocked off their perch, it ended up more like an act of self-sabotage, just like that at Manchester United a generation earlier.

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Why did Liverpool fall into decline in the 1990s?

It’s a long, complicated story, explored in depth in an article (below) about the 30 years between Liverpool’s 18th and 19th league titles. But essentially, it came down to complacency, poor decision-making and a struggle to adapt to a changing landscape once they were no longer kings of all they surveyed — much like United’s decline post-1968 and, indeed, post-2013.

In contrast to the United experience a generation earlier, Liverpool’s dominance had been sustained beyond the departure of legendary managers. But when Dalglish stood down as manager in 1991, exhausted not just by the pressures of the job but by the emotional trauma of the Hillsborough disaster and its aftermath, it spelt the end of the “Boot Room” culture.

Dalglish’s former team-mate Graeme Souness took over with a revolutionary zeal, determined to rejuvenate and shake up the ageing squad that had won the league title a year earlier. Almost immediately, the famed “Liverpool way” — togetherness, continuity — disintegrated. As Paul Stewart, one of many failed signings, told The Athletic: “The whole ethos had changed by the time I got there (in 1992). Players were thinking: ‘The walls are closing in and starting to crumble, so I’d better look after myself’.”

The homespun philosophies that underpinned Liverpool’s success through the 1970s and 1980s needed updating, but there was fierce resistance.

Souness’s successor, Roy Evans — a graduate of Shankly’s Boot Room — was a unifying figure, but a softer style of man-management was exploited in a dressing room that lacked the winning mentality that had gradually been instilled under Ferguson at Manchester United. The off-pitch antics of the “Spice Boys” (the name bestowed on the squad by Britain’s tabloid press, to reflect their fondness for the party lifestyle) were largely typical of the era, but, as former Liverpool defender John Scales said: “We lacked that ruthless streak, that relentless pursuit of excellence week in, week out.”

Scales added: “There was still a feeling at Liverpool that it was a matter of when — not if — they got back to winning titles. That period of domination in the ’70s and ’80s was still so fresh in everyone’s mind. But so much had happened in the years since 1990.”

Ferguson wrote something in his 2013 autobiography about how “in 2000 I looked at Liverpool and knew there was no easy way back for them. They were in for a long haul. You had no feeling that Liverpool were a threat again. The impetus was all with us.”

There were certainly times when Liverpool threatened — under Evans, under Gerard Houllier, under Rafa Benitez, even challenging for the Premier League title under Brendan Rodgers in the season Ferguson wrote those words (finishing second, two points behind Manchester City). But progress and cup successes, even winning the Champions League in 2005, never translated to domestic supremacy.

As Steve Nicol, one of the 1980s heroes who survived the Souness cull, put it, “There were times after (1990) when I thought: ‘OK, we’re not in the best shape here. This is going to take a little bit longer than I thought’. But before you knew it, it was five years, 10 years, 20 years. The longer it goes on, the harder it gets.”

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So much of the above can be applied to Manchester United’s stagnation in the years since Ferguson retired: the ageing stars who failed to adapt to a regime change; the erosion of a winning mentality as a mood of self-preservation took over the dressing room; poor recruitment; an excess of faith put in young players who were not of the same level; a failure to adapt to changing times; a complacent belief that it was “a matter of time when — not if — they got back to winning titles” when the reality proved different.

Twelve years have passed since their last league title and, although they came second under Jose Mourinho in 2018 and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer 2021, there has not been a serious title challenge to speak of.

It has been the same cycle of boom and bust under a succession of managers, the latest of them Erik ten Hag — an immediate upturn (usually Champions League qualification and, in some cases, success in a knock-out competition) followed by a serious drop-off.

The current manager, Ruben Amorim, will hope an extraordinary Europa League comeback against Olympique Lyonnais last week proves a catalyst for success in the way a dramatic quarter-final victory over Borussia Dortmund in the same competition was for Jurgen Klopp in his first season in charge of Liverpool.

Much like their Liverpool counterparts, Manchester United’s fans have clung to their history in dark moments.

During some of their worst defeats over the past decade, several of them against their rivals from Merseyside, United’s supporters have sung about the glory days over and again — “Twenty times, twenty times, Man United” is a perennial favourite — determined to remind themselves and their Liverpool counterparts that, even if the tables have turned over the past decade, they were still out in front with the record for most English league titles.

“And that was impossible to imagine when I was growing up,” says United fan Nick Howard, 33. “Getting level with them on 18 was absolutely massive, especially because that (2008-09) was the season when we were in a title race with Liverpool. Then we got our 19th at Ewood Park, then the 20th with the Robin van Persie hat-trick against Aston Villa, which was 12 years ago this week. And if you had said at that point that they (Liverpool) would be moving level with us on 20-all …”

Can they still sing “Twenty times” once the record is shared with Liverpool — or, worse still, if their rivals move clear? Howard is unsure. “Maybe it takes a bit of the shine off,” he says. It is something he hasn’t really wanted to contemplate.

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So far, that obsession has been little in evidence with Liverpool since the tables were turned.

Until 2020, it was far more about ending that long wait for a league title. But even having reduced the deficit to one, the focus over the past five years, both under Klopp and now under Slot, has been simply on trying to win another title, rather than thinking about a wider historical context.

Is Slot or Virgil van Dijk or even Curtis Jones desperate to knock United off their f***ing perch? None of them has ever indicated that it is a prime motivation, or even paid lip service to the notion. The narrative just hasn’t been there. It hasn’t been pushed by the media, but it wasn’t during the Ferguson era either. It was Ferguson and his players who pushed it.

Perhaps it reflects changing times in the Premier League. Whereas Ferguson took over at United when Liverpool were still the dominant force in English football, Slot (and even Klopp previously) took residence at Anfield with the club’s fiercest rivals in abeyance. Whereas Gary and Phil Neville, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs and Nicky Butt were boyhood United fans who grew up loathing their rivals — and, in Gary Neville’s case, made no attempt to hide it — Liverpool’s squad in 2025 reflects the less tribal, more cosmopolitan outlook of the modern Premier League.

But even among Liverpool’s fanbase, it seems to be an afterthought — if that.

“I honestly hadn’t even thought about it until you mentioned it to me,” says Damian Kavanagh, 56, who has followed his team all over Europe. “To me, it’s not about equalling Manchester United or trying to go ahead of them. It’s just about wanting Liverpool to be great and to send Liverpool’s name — the club and the city — around the world.”

Neil Atkinson, who hosts The Anfield Wrap podcast, says similar, suggesting that, while it would be “great wind-up material for when we go to Old Trafford next season”, it feels largely irrelevant “because of how genuinely abysmal they are right now”.

What matters far more, he says, is the opportunity for Liverpool’s players and supporters to celebrate a league title together — something they did not have the opportunity to do in 2020 because of the pandemic.

“But, of course,” he says, “if there was an announcement that an asteroid was about to hit and the world was going to end in 10 minutes, I would be up for getting Alex Ferguson to go on TV to declare that Liverpool had won.”

In truth, as Atkinson and every Liverpool supporter knows, the asteroid is probably more likely than Ferguson conceding defeat.

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As well as the never-ending battle for domestic supremacy, there is the complicated question of which is English football’s most successful club.

Winning the Premier League will be, by Liverpool’s assessment, their 52nd major trophy. By their reckoning, they are already four ahead of Manchester United’s total of 47, so this will take them five clear in the all-time trophy count. Of the two competitions that matter most, they will be level when it comes to league titles and three clear (6-3) when it comes to European Cup titles. Manchester United’s superiority will be restricted to the FA Cup (13-8) and the now-defunct European Cup Winners’ Cup (1-0).

“It’s indisputable,” Atkinson says, “that Liverpool are the most successful club in English football history.”

But Manchester United see it differently.

Their definition of a major trophy extends to the Community Shield, which they have won 21 times to Liverpool’s 16. By their assessment, they lead 68-67 — by which measure Liverpool’s 20th league title will take it to 68-68.

The debate over whether the Community Shield counts as a “major” trophy has divided statisticians for years. Some regard it as a glorified friendly match to herald the new season. Ferguson, who oversaw 10 of Manchester United’s 21 Community Shield wins, was among those who shared that view.

But even the Community Shield question throws up confusion.

The now-recognised format — a match between the previous season’s league champions and FA Cup winners — was not formalised until 1974, by which time Manchester United had won it seven times (two of them shared) and Liverpool three times (two shared). Before that, the format was fluid, with participation not compulsory for either the league champions or the FA Cup holders.

Some statisticians dispute whether the European Super Cup, Club World Cup or Intercontinental Cup should be classed as major trophies. But for the purpose of this debate, both Liverpool and United include these competitions in their roll of honour. If they did not, Liverpool would be 46-44 ahead by this count.

What is certain is that the pendulum has swung back in Liverpool’s favour over the past decade.

When Ferguson retired in 2013, United had edged ahead in terms of total trophies won (62-59, with Community Shields included) and moved level in terms of “major” trophies (44-44) by winning the League Cup and Europa League under Mourinho in 2017. Liverpool’s seven major trophy successes under Klopp restored their lead (51-47), though they remained one behind if Community Shields are included.

Even now, Manchester United’s investor relations website states that they are “the most successful club in English football”. But whereas that claim was briefly beyond dispute, it will be hard to sustain once Liverpool have moved level in league championships, especially as Liverpool have six European Cups to United’s three.

What Liverpool need to do now is to keep winning. At some point, Atkinson says, Manchester United will get their act together “and it will be fantastic,” he adds, “if we’ve been able to add another three or four league titles before that happens”.

But even in difficult times, as Liverpool showed in the 2000s and Manchester United in the 1980s and over the past decade, the most successful clubs keep finding ways to add to their trophy haul. The Europa League is still in Manchester United’s sights this season and, if it ends up in glory in Bilbao on May 21, they will insist that a 69th trophy reasserts their status as English football’s most successful club — at least until Liverpool contest the Community Shield in August.

Empires have risen, empires have fallen, and the balance of power has continued to shift back and forth. The battle never ends.

(Illustration: Will Tullos / The Athletic. Photos: Getty Images)

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